Autor Thema: Linyphia triangularis et tenuipalpis  (Gelesen 3314 mal)

Anes Pitrio

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Linyphia triangularis et tenuipalpis
« am: 2016-09-23 21:47:24 »
Hello Everyone, I have a bit of a problem with the information on the wiki concerning many species but particularly Linyphia triangularis et tenuipalpis.

First, I will remind the forum that I've only studied spiders since July 2016. I never claim to be an arachnologist.

So I've been using Bellmann books to learn more about spiders. Sometime in August, I realized that many species can only be determined by genital examination. I remember seeing L. triangualris in Bellmann's book. I have seen triangularis every year for four years now. Identifying them is easy in my opinion. No other spider resembles triangularis so much as to create confusion.

One day while browsing the wiki, I noticed the tenuipalpis entry. I saw a photo that compares the femur 1 of each species noting that the difference between the two are the number of spikes/hairs present on the femur.

http://wiki.spinnen-forum.de/index.php?title=Linyphia_tenuipalpis
http://wiki.spinnen-forum.de/images/c/c5/Torner_Linyphia_triangularis_og_Linyphia_tenuipalpis_600.jpg

by placing this image on the wiki, it creates a notion that the two species cannot be separated visually. I disagree wholeheartedly. I've searched the web for credible photos of tenuipalpis and it looks nothing like triangularis. Only an idiot would be confused. Wirklich.

I went on a mission to find the "similar" looking tenuipalpis. I thought that I found it until I noticed that the two look nothing alike. I wonder "where did I get this idea that tenuipalpis can be confused with triangularis?" my answer is the wiki.

My Wife went looking for this photo:
http://wiki.spinnen-forum.de/images/c/c5/Torner_Linyphia_triangularis_og_Linyphia_tenuipalpis_600.jpg

I am mad that this nonsense is on the wiki. My Wife found the source of the data:

http://www.edderkopper.net/

this person is not an arachnologist or a biologist. I cannot believe that the wiki uses data that is not from credible sources.

I say all of this because I have specimens of triangularis and very good macro photos. The triangularis has three hairs and I know it is triangularis because I have the specimen. The epigyne cannot be mistaken.

I wonder are there any professional arachnologists editing the wiki?

I was just reading a professional study about molecular identification and I read an interesting statement: Linyphiidae are more common and widespread than any other family of spiders in Europe. My work with triangularis proves this because I find it in many different environments (from dry to wet for example.)

I am frustrated with this wiki. I depend upon the data to facilitate my work. I spend more time identifying insects. I could use help with spiders but now I wonder if I can trust the data on the wiki.

In summary, the spikes/hairs are not a method for separation of these two species. Microscopic examination is the scientific method. However, habitus is clearly different with these two species. I hope that this data is corrected. Again, I have photos from today that prove it to be false.

Pierre Oger

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Re: Linyphia triangularis et tenuipalpis
« Antwort #1 am: 2016-09-23 22:53:44 »
...

I am mad that this nonsense is on the wiki. My Wife found the source of the data:

http://www.edderkopper.net/

this person is not an arachnologist or a biologist. I cannot believe that the wiki uses data that is not from credible sources.

...

I'm really surprised to read such remarks !
Do you really think the people of Edderkopper.net are so stupid ? Same question for the people working on the Wiki ?
Everybody here tries to make the knowledge better about the determinations and every tip is good to know !
Possible there is one or other error on the Wiki : in this case we have to discuss about it... like gentlemen can do it !

Harald Løvbrekke

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Re: Linyphia triangularis et tenuipalpis
« Antwort #2 am: 2016-09-24 01:50:48 »
A little response from edderkopper.net
http://www.edderkopper.net/ is a Norwegian forum for people who are interested in spiders. You refer to this forum where the language is on the Norwegian, then I hope you have read the one in the adjacent to the photo: "Have observed, a rough distinction method that can be used in the field"
I know this is discussed before and it is not a completely safe method only to distinguish the species, but can be an indicator.

edderkopper. net. is run today by mid Troms museum
how responsible are arachnologist, without that he has controlled everything. The person you have little credence to the skilled person is a professional Illustrator who has worked closely with Norway's leading arachnologist.

I've been working a lot with the spiders in recent years and found errors in both the literature and the arts provisions made by biologists as there is no guarantee that it can not be found error so therefore I think it is a little unfair if your criticism of the Wiki its credibility is made only from these two species.

Wish you a nice day and hope you after all will find much useful in Wiki that you can use in your studies of spiders.
They are in any case, great that you've gotten interested in spiders

Regards
Harald
from edderkopper. net

Rainer Breitling

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Re: Linyphia triangularis et tenuipalpis
« Antwort #3 am: 2016-09-24 11:07:35 »
Let's have a quick look at what the professional arachnologists have to say about this topic.

How about Eugène Simon, who is not only the most illustrious arachnologist ever, but also the person who first described Linyphia tenuipalpis? According to him, the colouration of L. tenuipalpis is as in typical L. triangularis ("Coloration du type"), and the two forms can only be distinguished by the spination of femur I. He considers tenuipalpis therefore a mere variant, not a separate species.

Or how about Peter van Helsdingen, the author of the authoritative monograph on Linyphia and related genera, whose work is one of the foundations of modern arachnology? He writes "L. tenuipalpis resembles triangularis very closely indeed in coloration, size, and habitat" and "Abdomen. — Strongly resembling triangularis, and as variable..." "The habitat of the present species [L. tenuipalpis] does not seem to differ from the habitat of triangularis." He also details the differences in the spination of femur I, despite noting some overlap.

Or perhaps the two most important identification guides might provide some clues: Heimer & Nentwig state that the opisthosoma pattern of L. tenuipalpis is similar to that of L. triangularis ("OpS. ähnlich triangularis"), and Roberts confirms that males and females of the two species are very similar ("Mannetjes en vrouwtjes lijken erg op L. triangularis...").

Thus, there is consensus in the literature, and the Wiki reflects this expert knowledge. I have seen both species and can confirm that typical specimens are rather distinct, but I would still call them very similar; and they become more so after some time in alcohol. Also, as van Helsdingen writes, both species are very variable, with strikingly aberrant outliers, making it even more important to have a close look at genitals and spination, before jumping to conclusions. That is particularly relevant for L. triangularis: this species is extremely abundant, and even if only a tiny fraction of specimens show a tenuipalpis-like habitus, this could result in a large number of misidentifications.

All the information that I refer to here is available for free online, via the World Spider Catalog. I would suggest that before the next post of this kind, you spend some time reading the relevant literature first. This could help distinguishing between real mistakes and mere misunderstandings. As Pierre and Harald explain, nobody expects the Wiki to be perfect, and constructive criticism is always welcome. But it should have some basis in facts.

Rainer

PS: And reading some of the earlier discussions in the Forum could also be helpful, e.g. 1, 2, 3.

Martin Lemke

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Re: Linyphia triangularis et tenuipalpis
« Antwort #4 am: 2016-09-24 16:51:32 »
Da ich schon beide Arten gefunden habe, kann ich sagen, sie lassen sich sehr gut genital unterscheiden. Und ja, ich bestimme Linyphia triangularis immer genital. Genitaluntersuchung ist  bei den meisten Arten die zu empfehlende Methode, darum habe ich kein Verständnis für einen Generalangriff auf unser Wiki und unsere norwegischen Freunde von edderkopper.net. Aber wem 's nicht gefällt, der kann ja das Weite suchen.

Martin
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DAS waren noch Zeiten: Norwegen 2011.

Tobias

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Re: Linyphia triangularis et tenuipalpis
« Antwort #5 am: 2016-09-24 20:01:17 »
Thanks for the backup, Pierre, Harald and Rainer.

@ Anes

I think Rainer already listed the problems with your "arguments", and Pierre and Rainer pointed out how you should behave in future.

Since I am a moderator of this forum and editor of the wiki, this is my last warning. You discredited our norwegian friends without any right and behaved disrespectful to many members in many ways already in some of your very first posts. I've had an eye on you since then and sometimes ask myself if you're just here to create confusion on purpose.

In summary, I want you to apologize for this very rough and impolite attack here. Without a clear statement, your account will be deleted.

Tobias

Martin Lemke

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Re: Linyphia triangularis et tenuipalpis
« Antwort #6 am: 2016-09-25 22:52:25 »
@Anes: Wenn die von Tobias geforderte Entschuldigung nicht bis spätestens Fr, den 30.09.2016 20:00 Uhr hier gepostet wird, bist Du raus aus dem Forum.

Martin
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DAS waren noch Zeiten: Norwegen 2011.

Martin Lemke

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Re: Linyphia triangularis et tenuipalpis
« Antwort #7 am: 2016-10-01 11:04:14 »
Die Frist, sich zu entschuldigen, ist abgelaufen. Anes Pitrio ist ab sofort aus dem Forum gebannt.

Martin
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DAS waren noch Zeiten: Norwegen 2011.