Forum europäischer Spinnentiere
Bestimmungsfragen (Determination) => Knifflige Determination (Difficult determination) => Thema gestartet von: Armen Seropian am 2021-09-22 20:18:28
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Greetings to all.
Haven't been for a while here, but the Tegenaria sp. male that a friend of mine has found in Gori on October 1 at the river bank, became a true headache for me. I couldn't find any similar drawings of a male pedipalp of known species. Maybe I've overlooked it? Will be thankful for any suggestions.
(https://i.ibb.co/KDYGW3v/f2021073104.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7QHzK6m)
(https://i.ibb.co/dj6jy8K/f2021074103-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0mZm3HJ)
Best regards,
Armen
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May be this Tegenaria abchasica Charitonov, 1941 (https://araneae.nmbe.ch/data/4363/Tegenaria_abchasica)
You may check, which Tegenaria is known for Georgia; consult the list in our wiki: https://wiki.arages.de/index.php?title=Tegenaria (https://wiki.arages.de/index.php?title=Tegenaria) on each article is included a link to the relevant page of araneae.nmbe.ch with the taxonomic details.
HTH
Martin
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Nice to see you here again!
Interesting find and I am also failing to find it; Martin' s suggestion fits the best but the straight median apophysis (unless that's explainable from perspective?) and the lack of the long process on the dorsal tibial apophysis (broken off?) don't match. It may easily be an undescribed species species or the undescribed male of one of the species described only from females from the Caucasus?
Simeon
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Hi Martin,
Yes, the only species that fits best is T. abchasica indeed, but there are some differences in my opinion (see Simeon's comment).
Actually, I've a poor quality picture of the epigyne as well (both as T. abchasica, so cf. abchasica) and the proportions do not fit T. abchasica, nor does the sternum...
Hi Simeon, nice to see you too! No, that's not a perspective thing, yesterday I've caught a male from other place and in the microscope tibial apophysis clearly is not that curved as it is in T. abchasica.
Anyway I'm attaching epigyne photos of female epigynes and sternum.
T. cf. abchasica ♀ sternum
(https://i.ibb.co/qd8x7W6/f2021074352.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MsH9ZGd)
T. cf. abchasica epigyne (unfortunately I don't have lateral view, but the epigyne is not flat and somewhat convex.
(https://i.ibb.co/pPwqzTv/f2021074339.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
T. abchasica epigyne
(https://i.ibb.co/x6FdxWd/KVS621-epg2-stacked.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vkXR0pR)
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Interesting. Were you able to unambiguously match the first female to the male or at this point you're treating it as a separate species? Anyway, it bears some resemblance to the epigynal shape of two species with undescribed males - chumachenkoi (https://araneae.nmbe.ch/data/4364/Tegenaria_chumachenkoi) and ismaillensis (https://araneae.nmbe.ch/data/4485/Tegenaria_ismaillensis), both with T- or anvil-shaped middle part. It would definitely be worth to see the vulva of this female type.
Simeon
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Well, my guess that the male and female are the same species is based on the almost exact place of finding within a 1 day interval.
Yes Simeon, the female indeed looks like T. chumachenkoi, but when I've outlined both epigynes (yellow one - chumachenkoi, the difference in proportions of height and width were quit obvious for me (but yes, it may be the case of perspective).
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The width of an epigyne is a very variable character in my experience so I wouldn't use it unconditionally as an argument against conspecificity. Which of course doesn't directly imply the two are conspecific :D . A very interesting case, anyway. Finding more material at the locality, especially females, may be very useful.
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It may easily be an undescribed species species or the undescribed male of one of the species described only from females from the Caucasus?
Or still a the first record of a known species for Georgia.
The first strategy is to consult the key at https://araneae.nmbe.ch/genkey/7/Agelenidae?lang=en (https://araneae.nmbe.ch/genkey/7/Agelenidae?lang=en)
Another Idea: I ask Stefan Otto (https://stefan-otto-spiders.de/ (https://stefan-otto-spiders.de/) & https://caucasus-spiders.info/ (https://caucasus-spiders.info/)), a German specialist of Georgian spiders.
HTH
Martin
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As somebody with multiple first records for my country, I don't use the country filter at Araneae or current checklists :P . My limitations were those of Araneae - I didn't check species from the Levant, Iran or further East in Asia though, I admit.
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Stefan Otto schrieb mir gerade, dass es nicht Tegenaria abchasica ist. Er ist mit Armen in Dialog.
Ich hoffe wir bekommen die Lösung, wenn es eine gibt, hier präsentiert wird. Sowas ist schließlich immer sehr spannend.
Martin
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Stefan Otto schrieb mir gerade, dass es nicht Tegenaria abchasica ist. Er ist mit Armen in Dialog.
Ich hoffe wir bekommen die Lösung, wenn es eine gibt, hier präsentiert wird. Sowas ist schließlich immer sehr spannend.
Martin
Ah, das freut mich.